Comments on: One day, I will be the parent of an adult. http://meanderwithme.com/2006/10/17/one-day-i-will-be-the-parent-of-an-adult/ Welcome to reality. If you lived here, you'd be home now. Fri, 12 Mar 2010 14:01:24 +0000 hourly 1 http://wordpress.org/?v=3.0 By: shelly http://meanderwithme.com/2006/10/17/one-day-i-will-be-the-parent-of-an-adult/#comment-557 shelly Wed, 25 Oct 2006 05:30:00 +0000 http://musings.meanderwithme.com/2006/10/one-day-i-will-be-the-parent-of-an-adult/#comment-557 Personally, I disagree that the scriptures say that sex outside of marriage is a sin. My basis is the history of the word "fornication" (which you can read for yourself at dictionary.com, but I'll give you a short version here). Before it came to mean what it does now, the Greek root "fornicati" referred to the place where prostitutes hung out and plied their trade. I believe, in truth, the scriptures say that having illicit or illegal sex (i.e., sex with a prostitute) is a sin. It says absolutely nothing about sex between two consenting, unmarried, non-prostitute adults being a sin. Ultimately, I think the decision to have sex is between the couple and whatever deity they believe in. Also consider that Jacob was not only a bigamist and had children through both Leah and Rachel, he had children through both their mistresses as well--to whom he was NOT married; and God never punished him for it. Later on, scriptures tell us that both David and his son Solomon each had loads of wives and mistresses (the mistresses were there for the sole purpose of having sex); and God didn't punish them for that, either. (The only thing David got a divine smackdown for was committing adultery with Bathsheba.) I also think Mermade makes an interesting point about Adam and Eve, and the concept that having sex = marriage. In fact, I even made a suggestion regarding the latter some time ago (I don't think what I wrote then is online anymore). I believe I mentioned that since there was no real "marriage ceremony" as we know it today during Adam and Eve's time (or even afterwards, for that matter), the only way for a couple to seal the deal (if you will) was to have sex. FWIW, I'm still a virgin...and that's mainly because I've yet to find "the one"; and I was also brought up to believe that God created sex for the confeins of marriage only. It took me about 20 years to undo that sort of thinking. Personally, I disagree that the scriptures say that sex outside of marriage is a sin. My basis is the history of the word “fornication” (which you can read for yourself at dictionary.com, but I’ll give you a short version here).

Before it came to mean what it does now, the Greek root “fornicati” referred to the place where prostitutes hung out and plied their trade. I believe, in truth, the scriptures say that having illicit or illegal sex (i.e., sex with a prostitute) is a sin. It says absolutely nothing about sex between two consenting, unmarried, non-prostitute adults being a sin.

Ultimately, I think the decision to have sex is between the couple and whatever deity they believe in.

Also consider that Jacob was not only a bigamist and had children through both Leah and Rachel, he had children through both their mistresses as well–to whom he was NOT married; and God never punished him for it. Later on, scriptures tell us that both David and his son Solomon each had loads of wives and mistresses (the mistresses were there for the sole purpose of having sex); and God didn’t punish them for that, either. (The only thing David got a divine smackdown for was committing adultery with Bathsheba.)

I also think Mermade makes an interesting point about Adam and Eve, and the concept that having sex = marriage. In fact, I even made a suggestion regarding the latter some time ago (I don’t think what I wrote then is online anymore). I believe I mentioned that since there was no real “marriage ceremony” as we know it today during Adam and Eve’s time (or even afterwards, for that matter), the only way for a couple to seal the deal (if you will) was to have sex.

FWIW, I’m still a virgin…and that’s mainly because I’ve yet to find “the one”; and I was also brought up to believe that God created sex for the confeins of marriage only. It took me about 20 years to undo that sort of thinking.

]]> By: Mermade http://meanderwithme.com/2006/10/17/one-day-i-will-be-the-parent-of-an-adult/#comment-556 Mermade Fri, 20 Oct 2006 04:46:54 +0000 http://musings.meanderwithme.com/2006/10/one-day-i-will-be-the-parent-of-an-adult/#comment-556 Mike - thank you for your insight and concern. Please know that I did not take my decision to loose my virginity lightly. In fact, I believed in waiting until marriage ever since I was a little girl. When I became a teenager, I read virtually every Christian book on purity that's out there - some being, "When God Writes Your Love Story," "...and the Bride Wore White," "Gift Wrapped by God" and "Every Young Woman's Battle." Heck, I even emailed Brio Magazine about my questions on the matter. (If you like, you can read my email and their response on my blog at http://mermade.typepad.com/mermade/2006/07/another_respons.html#comments. My boyfriend and I have been dating for nearly five years. After much reflection, questioning and prayer, we decided to marry each other last week in private. We believe that the Bible says sex is marriage. As in, when you have sex with someone, you are married to them. If you get legally married, but do not consumate your relationship sexually, then you are not married. My parents did not wait until they were legally married, but have only been with each other and nobody else. What I was always taught by them was that sex was something to be shared with ONE person throughout your life. After five years, I believe my boyfriend is that person. Marriage has held different meanings throughout the centuries. When I was still a firm believer in the True Love Waits movement, someone once asked me what constituted Adam and Eve's marriage, given that there was no government to recognize their spiritual union. In our case, we cannot afford to get married at this point - it'll be a couple more years. If we win the lotto, though, we'd get married in a heartbeat! These are some of the factors that have influenced my decision. Not every Christian may agree with them. And that's okay. I know the arguments. This is something I have discussed with God, a few religious leaders of my church, other Christian couples, Brio Magazine and my friends on the internet. I believe the Bible says sex is marriage, and something to only be shared with one person. Mike – thank you for your insight and concern. Please know that I did not take my decision to loose my virginity lightly. In fact, I believed in waiting until marriage ever since I was a little girl. When I became a teenager, I read virtually every Christian book on purity that’s out there – some being, “When God Writes Your Love Story,” “…and the Bride Wore White,” “Gift Wrapped by God” and “Every Young Woman’s Battle.” Heck, I even emailed Brio Magazine about my questions on the matter. (If you like, you can read my email and their response on my blog at http://mermade.typepad.com/mermade/2006/07/another_respons.html#comments.

My boyfriend and I have been dating for nearly five years. After much reflection, questioning and prayer, we decided to marry each other last week in private. We believe that the Bible says sex is marriage. As in, when you have sex with someone, you are married to them. If you get legally married, but do not consumate your relationship sexually, then you are not married. My parents did not wait until they were legally married, but have only been with each other and nobody else. What I was always taught by them was that sex was something to be shared with ONE person throughout your life. After five years, I believe my boyfriend is that person.

Marriage has held different meanings throughout the centuries. When I was still a firm believer in the True Love Waits movement, someone once asked me what constituted Adam and Eve’s marriage, given that there was no government to recognize their spiritual union. In our case, we cannot afford to get married at this point – it’ll be a couple more years. If we win the lotto, though, we’d get married in a heartbeat!

These are some of the factors that have influenced my decision. Not every Christian may agree with them. And that’s okay. I know the arguments. This is something I have discussed with God, a few religious leaders of my church, other Christian couples, Brio Magazine and my friends on the internet. I believe the Bible says sex is marriage, and something to only be shared with one person.

]]> By: Mike http://meanderwithme.com/2006/10/17/one-day-i-will-be-the-parent-of-an-adult/#comment-555 Mike Thu, 19 Oct 2006 18:34:37 +0000 http://musings.meanderwithme.com/2006/10/one-day-i-will-be-the-parent-of-an-adult/#comment-555 Alli: You make total sense. Perhaps I should clarify. Sexual feelings and expressions are very complex. They are as complex as the human being is. Sex is not just physical - it is emotional, intellectual, spiritual, and many other things. I agree completely that it is wrong to say to a child "Sex is bad, dirty and ugly." That would be denying a gift we have in sex. I acknowledge as a sexual being there is nothing that hits a deeper emotional chord than sex. My point is a little different. And I probably didn't express it to Mermade well enough. She was bemoaning that having sex before marriage means that she isn't a good girl, at least in the eyes of her church and parents. I was trying to give her perspective that in God's eyes, it isn't a question necessarily of being good or bad. It is a question of what the Bible says and therefore what a church (based upon the Bible of course) will teach. My belief is that the Bible says sex outside of a marriage covenant is dangerous, not as a physical act, but in the tearing away of the bond that is formed. Something can be unhealthy and therefore bad for you. That doesn't make you a bad person because you want sex. How we comport our lives ought to be based upon a consistent belief system. Belief systems are not a la carte. You can't just pick and choose which parts you like. You either accept a system or reject it. If a couple had sex before marriage and then got married each time, there would be very few problems. However, that is not usually what happens. I have talked to all of my kids about sex as something that includes pleasure, but means so much more. I have no idea if they have had sex before marriage, nor do I care that much. That is their business. But I did tell them of the dangers of broken soul-ties. That outweighs the pleasure that sex can give. Either way, this is not a simple question for we humans who love sex. But there is no abiguity about what the Bible says about it. If someone doesn't agree with the Bible, I have no problem with that either. But I want Mermade to know it isn't necessarily a prejudice against sex developed by sex-starved legalists that decided this. They may apply the teaching of the Bible to their narrow viewpoint on sex, but it doesn't change what the Bible says. Alli: You make total sense. Perhaps I should clarify. Sexual feelings and expressions are very complex. They are as complex as the human being is. Sex is not just physical – it is emotional, intellectual, spiritual, and many other things. I agree completely that it is wrong to say to a child “Sex is bad, dirty and ugly.” That would be denying a gift we have in sex. I acknowledge as a sexual being there is nothing that hits a deeper emotional chord than sex.

My point is a little different. And I probably didn’t express it to Mermade well enough. She was bemoaning that having sex before marriage means that she isn’t a good girl, at least in the eyes of her church and parents. I was trying to give her perspective that in God’s eyes, it isn’t a question necessarily of being good or bad. It is a question of what the Bible says and therefore what a church (based upon the Bible of course) will teach.

My belief is that the Bible says sex outside of a marriage covenant is dangerous, not as a physical act, but in the tearing away of the bond that is formed. Something can be unhealthy and therefore bad for you. That doesn’t make you a bad person because you want sex. How we comport our lives ought to be based upon a consistent belief system. Belief systems are not a la carte. You can’t just pick and choose which parts you like. You either accept a system or reject it.

If a couple had sex before marriage and then got married each time, there would be very few problems. However, that is not usually what happens. I have talked to all of my kids about sex as something that includes pleasure, but means so much more. I have no idea if they have had sex before marriage, nor do I care that much. That is their business. But I did tell them of the dangers of broken soul-ties. That outweighs the pleasure that sex can give. Either way, this is not a simple question for we humans who love sex.

But there is no abiguity about what the Bible says about it. If someone doesn’t agree with the Bible, I have no problem with that either. But I want Mermade to know it isn’t necessarily a prejudice against sex developed by sex-starved legalists that decided this. They may apply the teaching of the Bible to their narrow viewpoint on sex, but it doesn’t change what the Bible says.

]]> By: Fred http://meanderwithme.com/2006/10/17/one-day-i-will-be-the-parent-of-an-adult/#comment-554 Fred Thu, 19 Oct 2006 17:39:29 +0000 http://musings.meanderwithme.com/2006/10/one-day-i-will-be-the-parent-of-an-adult/#comment-554 Allison- Good post, and interesting comments so far! Not being a parent, I think that, while I agree with your basic point, I have a bit of a different take on the subject compared to yourself and Mary P. I grew up in a small town and most of my friends were Catholic (I wasn't a Catholic myself, my mother was an Evangelical and my father was non-religious). Anyway, most of the adults I knew when I was growing up had fairly conservative attitudes about sex, but that seemed to have little impact on whether the children had healthy or unhealthy sex lives when they became sexually active. My feeling is that if parents are generally supportive and involved in their children's lives, even if their attitudes towards sex are fairly close-minded, then the children will feel like they have the freedom to make mistakes and to approach sex at a pace with which they are comfortable, since they know that they have a support network when and if they do mess up. The problem I think is with the children who have poor relationships with their parents, because there are virtually no alternative support networks for adolescents experimenting with sex, except perhaps their friends, whose "support" may or may not be helpful. Teachers, coaches, pastors, and priests in general will not, and for the most part legally can not, talk to non-relative adolescents about sex on a one-on-one basis. This is, I think, a symptom of our society, where we prefer to think that anyone under the age of 18, and certainly women under the age of 18, should not be having sex, and if they are having sex, they should feel ashamed about it. Allison-
Good post, and interesting comments so far! Not being a parent, I think that, while I agree with your basic point, I have a bit of a different take on the subject compared to yourself and Mary P. I grew up in a small town and most of my friends were Catholic (I wasn’t a Catholic myself, my mother was an Evangelical and my father was non-religious). Anyway, most of the adults I knew when I was growing up had fairly conservative attitudes about sex, but that seemed to have little impact on whether the children had healthy or unhealthy sex lives when they became sexually active. My feeling is that if parents are generally supportive and involved in their children’s lives, even if their attitudes towards sex are fairly close-minded, then the children will feel like they have the freedom to make mistakes and to approach sex at a pace with which they are comfortable, since they know that they have a support network when and if they do mess up. The problem I think is with the children who have poor relationships with their parents, because there are virtually no alternative support networks for adolescents experimenting with sex, except perhaps their friends, whose “support” may or may not be helpful. Teachers, coaches, pastors, and priests in general will not, and for the most part legally can not, talk to non-relative adolescents about sex on a one-on-one basis. This is, I think, a symptom of our society, where we prefer to think that anyone under the age of 18, and certainly women under the age of 18, should not be having sex, and if they are having sex, they should feel ashamed about it.

]]> By: Allison http://meanderwithme.com/2006/10/17/one-day-i-will-be-the-parent-of-an-adult/#comment-553 Allison Thu, 19 Oct 2006 16:49:10 +0000 http://musings.meanderwithme.com/2006/10/one-day-i-will-be-the-parent-of-an-adult/#comment-553 Mike, While I appreciate your words, I see a vast difference between parents' ingraining into their children's heads that sex is evil and bad versus their lovingly acknowleging sex as a reality of life, and providing counsel on what it means to become involved. What I expect (and hope) to do as a parent is to be open with my daughter (and any future children) about sexuality -- not about inappropriate details of my life or hers, but about what it means. You and I both agree that sex is something that shouldn't be taken lightly (sadly, I have that perspective from trial and error). Where we diverge is what it means to seriously consider the decision to become involved. I would say it's appropriate within a loving (and ideally committed) relationship, where you would reserve it for marriage alone. My point in my last comment was that teaching a black-and-white viewpoint with respect to sexuality (or any issue, for that matter) is setting a child up for failure. The last thing I would want is for Maya to think, "I screwed up once, therefore I'm a failure -- so why bother to try to do right?" I believe that a mindset that equates imperfection with failure can be (and will be) much more damaging. I've experienced it in my own life, and I've seen it in others' lives recently. If one walks through life thinking that the slightest mistake means they are flawed, that's a huge burden to carry. Am I making sense? (really -- am I? :) ) Mike,

While I appreciate your words, I see a vast difference between parents’ ingraining into their children’s heads that sex is evil and bad versus their lovingly acknowleging sex as a reality of life, and providing counsel on what it means to become involved.

What I expect (and hope) to do as a parent is to be open with my daughter (and any future children) about sexuality — not about inappropriate details of my life or hers, but about what it means. You and I both agree that sex is something that shouldn’t be taken lightly (sadly, I have that perspective from trial and error). Where we diverge is what it means to seriously consider the decision to become involved. I would say it’s appropriate within a loving (and ideally committed) relationship, where you would reserve it for marriage alone.

My point in my last comment was that teaching a black-and-white viewpoint with respect to sexuality (or any issue, for that matter) is setting a child up for failure. The last thing I would want is for Maya to think, “I screwed up once, therefore I’m a failure — so why bother to try to do right?”

I believe that a mindset that equates imperfection with failure can be (and will be) much more damaging. I’ve experienced it in my own life, and I’ve seen it in others’ lives recently. If one walks through life thinking that the slightest mistake means they are flawed, that’s a huge burden to carry.

Am I making sense? (really — am I? :) )

]]> By: Mike http://meanderwithme.com/2006/10/17/one-day-i-will-be-the-parent-of-an-adult/#comment-552 Mike Thu, 19 Oct 2006 16:40:03 +0000 http://musings.meanderwithme.com/2006/10/one-day-i-will-be-the-parent-of-an-adult/#comment-552 Alli and Mermade: As much as I appreciate your honesty and want to be supportive of your decision to be sexually active, let me give the other side of the equation. It is not the church that is against sexual activity outside of marriage. The Bible is. It is the least ambiguous thing that the Bible says. Before blaming the church for believing and teaching this, remember that a belief system has to be based upon something. It can be based upon a revelation, a cultural system or random decisions. However, there is a reason God created us as sexual beings. We get to express love and commitment through sex. There is also a reason God created rivers and streams...to deliver fresh potable water to people in a constant flow so we wouldn't always have to dig down 100 feet for it. But rivers, when they run over the banks can cause serious damage. That is why there are boundaries on them. Within their boundaries, they are enjoyable and safe. Outside of those boundaries, they can be destructive. Sex is so much more than a physical activity. It is the joining of two people's bodies, souls and spirits. When you have that joining, and then break away from that person, there is a tearing of the soul and spirit tie between them. If you do that enough with enough people, then our spirit/soul connection breaks down completely and we begin to feel empty inside. In this respect, I speak not as a Christian., but as a therapist. I have been counseling for almost 30 years, and I have seen many people who have enjoyed have sexual experiences, but don't understand there is reasonable logic for having boundaries to enjoyable experiences. Parents mean well. And if they go to church, remember that churches are just trying to follow what the Bible says. Now, if you don't like what the Bible says, your argument is with it, not with your parents or church. Thanks for sharing what you did and forgive an old parent, psychologist and pastor for sharing his heart. Alli and Mermade: As much as I appreciate your honesty and want to be supportive of your decision to be sexually active, let me give the other side of the equation. It is not the church that is against sexual activity outside of marriage. The Bible is. It is the least ambiguous thing that the Bible says. Before blaming the church for believing and teaching this, remember that a belief system has to be based upon something. It can be based upon a revelation, a cultural system or random decisions.

However, there is a reason God created us as sexual beings. We get to express love and commitment through sex. There is also a reason God created rivers and streams…to deliver fresh potable water to people in a constant flow so we wouldn’t always have to dig down 100 feet for it.

But rivers, when they run over the banks can cause serious damage. That is why there are boundaries on them. Within their boundaries, they are enjoyable and safe. Outside of those boundaries, they can be destructive.

Sex is so much more than a physical activity. It is the joining of two people’s bodies, souls and spirits. When you have that joining, and then break away from that person, there is a tearing of the soul and spirit tie between them. If you do that enough with enough people, then our spirit/soul connection breaks down completely and we begin to feel empty inside. In this respect, I speak not as a Christian., but as a therapist. I have been counseling for almost 30 years, and I have seen many people who have enjoyed have sexual experiences, but don’t understand there is reasonable logic for having boundaries to enjoyable experiences.

Parents mean well. And if they go to church, remember that churches are just trying to follow what the Bible says. Now, if you don’t like what the Bible says, your argument is with it, not with your parents or church. Thanks for sharing what you did and forgive an old parent, psychologist and pastor for sharing his heart.

]]> By: Allison http://meanderwithme.com/2006/10/17/one-day-i-will-be-the-parent-of-an-adult/#comment-551 Allison Thu, 19 Oct 2006 16:30:03 +0000 http://musings.meanderwithme.com/2006/10/one-day-i-will-be-the-parent-of-an-adult/#comment-551 Mermade - wow, and congratulation on your decision, I hope! I know you've given it a lot of thought, so I trust that it's been (and will be) something special, rather than something that feels dirty. I posted in my comments on Mary's site: <blockquote>I've said of my daughter (only two now) that I KNOW she will have sex someday, and my hope is that it's her decision and that it's fabulous. <b>My current relationship is the first (FIRST!) ever where I've had no ambivalent/guilty feelings related to sex -- and I'm 35 years old!</b> How sad is that, that in trying to "protect" their child from something, my parents unwittingly screwed up a part of my life that should, instead, have been beautiful? They meant well...</blockquote> (emphasis added here) Sad, isn't it? I'm hopeful for you guys that you'll be able to enjoy the genuine love and affection you have for each other, and not let the bad-bad-bad that's been ingrained into your heads taint it. Enjoying a sexual relationship where it's purely a positive thing, rather than filled with ambivalence and guilt has been a wonderful experience for me. Mermade – wow, and congratulation on your decision, I hope! I know you’ve given it a lot of thought, so I trust that it’s been (and will be) something special, rather than something that feels dirty.

I posted in my comments on Mary’s site:

I’ve said of my daughter (only two now) that I KNOW she will have sex someday, and my hope is that it’s her decision and that it’s fabulous. My current relationship is the first (FIRST!) ever where I’ve had no ambivalent/guilty feelings related to sex — and I’m 35 years old!

How sad is that, that in trying to “protect” their child from something, my parents unwittingly screwed up a part of my life that should, instead, have been beautiful? They meant well…

(emphasis added here)

Sad, isn’t it? I’m hopeful for you guys that you’ll be able to enjoy the genuine love and affection you have for each other, and not let the bad-bad-bad that’s been ingrained into your heads taint it. Enjoying a sexual relationship where it’s purely a positive thing, rather than filled with ambivalence and guilt has been a wonderful experience for me.

]]> By: Mermade http://meanderwithme.com/2006/10/17/one-day-i-will-be-the-parent-of-an-adult/#comment-550 Mermade Thu, 19 Oct 2006 16:25:31 +0000 http://musings.meanderwithme.com/2006/10/one-day-i-will-be-the-parent-of-an-adult/#comment-550 Thank you so much for the link to this article, Allison! It's funny you so post about this, as I've been struggling with it these days! I recently became sexually active, and the hardest thing for me is hiding that from my parents. It is such a big deal for me, and usually I can tell my mom anything. But with this, I know she would give me "the look" and probably go into how the Church is against sex before legal marriage. My parents, I don't think, will ever see me as a sexual being. That, of course, is a good and bad thing. I don't want to think of them as sexual beings either! My family has always thought of me as "a good Christian girl." And now they might think otherwise of me. I know I shouldn't care, but part of me asks: Can't you be a good girl AND be sexually active?" Indeed! I think it's awesome that you're acknowledging this as a mother! Kudos!! :-) Thank you so much for the link to this article, Allison! It’s funny you so post about this, as I’ve been struggling with it these days!

I recently became sexually active, and the hardest thing for me is hiding that from my parents. It is such a big deal for me, and usually I can tell my mom anything. But with this, I know she would give me “the look” and probably go into how the Church is against sex before legal marriage. My parents, I don’t think, will ever see me as a sexual being. That, of course, is a good and bad thing. I don’t want to think of them as sexual beings either!

My family has always thought of me as “a good Christian girl.” And now they might think otherwise of me. I know I shouldn’t care, but part of me asks: Can’t you be a good girl AND be sexually active?” Indeed!

I think it’s awesome that you’re acknowledging this as a mother! Kudos!! :-)

]]> By: Kate http://meanderwithme.com/2006/10/17/one-day-i-will-be-the-parent-of-an-adult/#comment-549 Kate Wed, 18 Oct 2006 12:45:46 +0000 http://musings.meanderwithme.com/2006/10/one-day-i-will-be-the-parent-of-an-adult/#comment-549 Such a great topic! I get really tired of all the "you'll have to sit there cleaning a shot gun when her dates show up" rhetoric. Especially now that I have a son, too! Doesn't anyone worry about how a sexual relationship might affect a teenage/young adult boy? I hope both of them find happiness &#38; pleasure in their lives and choose to be with people who treat them lovingly. Such a great topic! I get really tired of all the “you’ll have to sit there cleaning a shot gun when her dates show up” rhetoric. Especially now that I have a son, too! Doesn’t anyone worry about how a sexual relationship might affect a teenage/young adult boy? I hope both of them find happiness &#38;#38; pleasure in their lives and choose to be with people who treat them lovingly.

]]> By: Mary P http://meanderwithme.com/2006/10/17/one-day-i-will-be-the-parent-of-an-adult/#comment-548 Mary P Tue, 17 Oct 2006 21:11:51 +0000 http://musings.meanderwithme.com/2006/10/one-day-i-will-be-the-parent-of-an-adult/#comment-548 Why, thank you. The sexual repression rampant in North America, highlighted on mommy blogs throughout America, drives me NUTS. Why do we inflict this on our children? Argh. Okay. Deeeep breath. Thanks for the link! Why, thank you. The sexual repression rampant in North America, highlighted on mommy blogs throughout America, drives me NUTS. Why do we inflict this on our children? Argh.

Okay. Deeeep breath. Thanks for the link!

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